In Response to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DOwzy-vKaFI
Demosthenes: He is commenting on the Catholic churches issues with the health care bill correct?.... then he is actually miss stating the facts of the bill.
February 24 at 3:04pm •
Demosthenes: misread the quote... the first paragraph is still absolutely wrong on a fundamental level, but the second paragraph is sound reasoning, aka G-d can't be the only reason to legislate for or against something.
The first and second paragraphs are saying the exact same thing...
Saturday at 8:12pm •
Demosthenes:
Not really...... first one is saying/imposing "Democracy Demands" on religion... (This is called suppression of rights) the second one is the obligation of the governing to use more then one source for a decision....The first one is demand...ing the religious to subjugate their beliefs in the interest of the 'greater good'...the second one is a statement I expect of any governing member, which is the need to take many imputs before a decision is reached in the interest of the state.
Also, since this first paragraph clearly is a prod at the Catholic Church's rights being suppressed, I could continue the argument from here, but I am being lazy.... long explaination short, the Catholic Church has the right to decline purchasing services for those it employs; for instance it can decline offering dental care. The new laws force them to purchase services they don't want under the term 'healthcare' which it really isn't...As to "the cost won't change"... it will be passed onto them because the people managing the premium costs are obligated by law to act in the best interest of the company, so they will reproportion the costs, and costs will be transfered at no impact to the bottom line of the company.See More
Saturday at 8:58pm •
David Cox
Look I will end this right now.. The Bible says a lot of things that people don't do today, for example, the Bible says that you aren't to touch a woman when she's on her period. But then what do we say to all the religion-abiding men who a...re OB-GYN's? Do they tell us anything about that? No? You know why? Because at some point a man/woman decided that if we don't understand what this is and why it happens, bad things could possibly come of it. Bad things could happen to women, make them sick, kill them, etc.
And we all know that this WHOLE DEBATE STARTED from giving contraception to women who need/want it.
So no, Obama isn't asking someone or some institution to go against their beliefs... He's asking them to give him a better answer as to why they won't follow it besides, "It goes against my religion." I don't think their is anything wrong with that. And in a time where I see as many people abusing that line as those who stand by it ethically, I think it's a fair request.
See More
Saturday at 11:02pm • • 3
Natalee FabFem Cope Very well said, David!!!! I ♥ u for this my brother
Sunday at 6:00am • • 1
David Cox http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/a_j_jacobs_year_of_living_biblically.html
A.J. Jacobs' year of living biblically
Video on TED.com
TED Talks Speaking at the most recent EG conference, author, philosopher, pranks...ter and journalist A.J. Jacobs talks about the year he spent living biblically -- following the rules in the Bible as literally as possible.See More
Sunday at 7:31am •
Raebekah Burean Actually, it says "Democracy demands that the religiously motivated" in reference to those in (or desiring to influence) government. Not "Democracy demands of religion"...
Sunday at 7:34am •
Meridith Gottlieb I miss you, David, so much...
Sunday at 10:13am •
Demosthenes:
same meaning, different wording, and the meaning in this case is not entirely from the words, it is also environment, and implied references....
the reasoning of the religious does not have to be logical or otherwise. it is an oppression ...of their choice whether or not it is logical.
This is entirely an oppression of rights issue... the religious have the right to offer or refuse to offer as they desire.
If I choose to employ someone, I have the right to offer benefits, or not offer benefits...in this case, the Catholic church doesn't want to offer some benefits, but wants to offer others. The federal government does not have the right to tie these private insurances together....i.e. if you buy 1 you must buy another benefit.See More
Sunday at 4:46pm •
Demosthenes: and this is a distinction of 'healthcare'... which doesn't make sence since the laws require a doctor to COMMITT FRAUD in order to give it to a women who MEDICALLY NEEDS IT!
Sunday at 4:51pm •
David Cox So I am just gonna say it, Drew... I am sorry, but you are wrong. The way you are reading into this is incorrect, especially since the words were carefully picked to make sure that it COULDN
7 hours ago •
David Cox
COULDN'T be misconstrued as anything else accept what it is. Look, the longer this debate in the nation drags on, the worse it is for no one else but women. Until you can show me how a woman who WANTS contraception trumps a woman who NEEDS ...contraception, all your points are moot.
You are right that the reasoning of the religious doesn't have to be logical or otherwise, but the rule of law MUST BE and you know it. This is no oppression of rights issue except the oppression of the rights of women.See More
7 hours ago • • 2
Sajel Lala ^^ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
7 hours ago •
David Cox
I gave you a great example of how religion has to reconcile with the medical world. It happens everyday but you don't seem to want to acknowledge it, which is unfortunate.
I will end this biblically...
A very religious man was at sea and... the boat capsized. The man couldn't swim well and was slowly drowning. A boat comes by and tries to help him. The man say no, God will save him. Another boat comes by and the man says no, God will save him. A THIRD comes by and the man says no, God will save him. Eventually he drowns. When he's in heaven, walking with God, the man asks him why He didn't save him when he needed Him most. God said I sent you three ships, but you refused their help...See More
7 hours ago •
Demosthenes: First, don't go biblical, its not my forte for a reason. Second... this isn't preventing women from getting healthcare is it?... it is preventing government intervention/oppression by the government mandating that if you purchase health insurance for your employees, this other, elective medication which you don't believe is healthcare, is forced on you.
7 hours ago •
David Cox How is birth control "elective" when majority women use it for reasons OTHER THAN not getting pregnant? And even if the Bible isn't your forte (It isn't mine either.) that story shows that God helps in many ways, including medicine. And denying that is wrong, religious or not.
7 hours ago •
Demosthenes: Does the Law deny healthcare to women?
7 hours ago •
Demosthenes: NO
7 hours ago •
David Cox Right, religious leaders are...
7 hours ago •
Demosthenes: Does it Deny the prescription of BC? NO
7 hours ago •
David Cox Right, religious leaders want to...
7 hours ago •
Demosthenes: No, they elect to offer healthcare benefits that fit their believes....
7 hours ago •
Demosthenes: FYI, some hospitals because of their religious affiliations, save the child first, not the mother if that is a choice. Personally, I won't go to that hospital. that is my choice
7 hours ago •
David Cox Right, which means that if they don't believe a women should get BC, even if she NEEDS it, she is being DENIED...
7 hours ago •
Demosthenes: If I want my BC covered under a heathcare my employer provides, I will either be employed by one who offers it or negotiate and ask for a different plan for it.
7 hours ago •
Demosthenes: WHICH FYI, is something that most Catholics have issues with, and the prevailing opinion is that for medical reasons, if they want it, they can have it..... but forcing a church to offer it IS illegal
7 hours ago •
David Cox First, no one's forcing a CHURCH... They want institutions that have religious affiliations to provide these services.
7 hours ago •
William Burton Henline Guys: I've just been unpacking my books, and I found my Bible. It says here that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter Heaven. I eagerly await the Romney tax hikes on the uber-rich.
7 hours ago • • 1
Raebekah Burean "If I want my BC covered under a healthcare my employer provides, I will either be employed by one who offers it or negotiate and ask for a different plan for it" ..... really, that is your solution? in this economy?
7 hours ago •
Demosthenes: Get rid of Mitt, I get it, and agree..
absofucking lutely. this is a Capitalist market, and the choices you make impact your ability to get a job. if you have drive that doesn't stop, it can pay off, but if you have drive that the market doesn't value, well, either live with the consequences, or adjust.
7 hours ago •
Demosthenes: and yes, this forces a Catholic church which runs a Catholic school to offer it.
7 hours ago •
David Cox So basically you are saying that since the economy is bad, women who need jobs and NEED BC have to choose. That's lose/lose and unfair. Sorry, dude.
7 hours ago •
Raebekah Burean
Well, I guess my choice to be born a woman impacts my career path in your estimation. As a man, you can choose to pursue whichever job you want with no impact on your sexual or reproductive choices (whether you GET that job is not entirely ...based on your "drive" as you naively seem to be believe, but that is another matter). As a woman, if I want to pursue my career aspirations for the next several years without a pregnancy I must either limit my job choices or never have sex with my husband. How smart of you to be born a man.See More
7 hours ago • • 1
David Cox Sorry, dude, but Rae hit the nail on the head.
7 hours ago •
Demosthenes: wow, totally misinterpreted what I said. Get the offer, negotiate if you need something... say they won't offer the HC, ask for the cost difference in a pay raise. if you have medical problems that require BC, you can ask and are (o wait) protected under law to get it... trust me, the church won't have a problem if you medically need it... they understand tort law.
7 hours ago •
David Cox How does the woman know that she won't need a more expensive birth control? How about her health care work that with her?
6 hours ago •
Demosthenes:
you can go to a doctor and FIND OUT... and if it changes, you can go to HR, and ask for a minor raise to offset that additional cost. or, omg, you could take it out of your normal paycheck. I do for the extra dental visit I get every year......my insurance doesn't cover it, so I pay $128 for 1 of the 3 visits a year, while the other visits I pay less. ALSO, you could just as easily Accidentally get a doctor that doesn't prescribe BC. shit like that happens, and you either accept it, or find a new doctor!See More
6 hours ago •
Demosthenes: you don't like the benefits? either accept them, negotiate them, or go somewhere else! that is the way shit works.... I know people who leave companies because of benefits ALL THE TIME.
6 hours ago •
David Cox That's all well and good... if the economy was were it was when Bill Clinton was in office... It isn't. So Obama is trying to protect women until they don't need it anymore or in perpetuity.
6 hours ago •
Demosthenes:
Yes, lets oppress the individual's right to offer what they view as fair compensation in favor of the argument "the economy isn't what is was when President Clinton fucked us in 1999 by repealing legislation that would have prevented the Fa...nnie May Freddie Mac fuck up but instead caused 8 years in 'prosperity' by giving out loans against homes to people who couldn't afford them and taking credit for his economic prosperity resulting in the largest increase in debt and the largest banking failure since 1929" Like I said, read the booksSee More
6 hours ago •
Demosthenes: I'd be intrigued to see the ratio of republican/democrat/independents you hang out with... just a curiosity point irrelevant to the argument... is there still an app for that?
6 hours ago •
David Cox
How many employers don't think that they should be offering health insurance period... What do you say to that?
As for my friends, I hang out with all kinds of people, all different political affiliations. To me, ratio means nothing becaus...e I listen to all sides. I, for example, agree that we should figure out some sort of temporary tax holiday to bring profits from American companies back to the US to help with job creation and domestic investments. That's a big Republican idea. Lower taxes, right? But no matter what friends I have, they see the difference between a program to help women and so-called "war on religion." See More
6 hours ago •
Demosthenes:
No, it is an attack on personal liberties... and the comment was more for my sake then a comment about it.
I shouldn't have to give my employee health insurance... but that's just my opinion for my own business... if market demands, mark...et demands. right now, my employee doesn't have that as a demand...
if the Catholic church can't find qualified applicants with their rules, then they will adjust... its called Free Market Econoics.See More
6 hours ago •
Demosthenes:
No, it is an attack on personal liberties... and the comment was more for my sake then a comment about it.
I shouldn't have to give my employee health insurance... but that's just my opinion for my own business... if market demands, market... demands. right now, my employee doesn't have that as a demand...
if the Catholic church can't find qualified applicants with their rules, then they will adjust... its called Free Market Economics.See More
6 hours ago •
Raebekah Burean I guess you also shouldn't have to pay your employees minimum wage or ensure safe working conditions? I mean, free market, they'll just go elsewhere, right? While we are at it, why can't you employ 5 year olds in factories for 14 hours a day? Hey, if they'll do it! I have to say, in the nicest way possible, the more I read your comments, the more disgusted I become.
about an hour ago •
David Cox Thank you, Rae. The true question is, Drew. WHere does it end? You want this to be all about choice... There are people who would like to not hire black people, not hire gays... HELL, there are minorities out there that don't care for white people and wouldn
about an hour ago •
David Cox wouldn't hire them... So you are going to have to tell us where it ends. You are basically so Pro-corporation and Pro-wall street, that you blindly follow them into the darkness, meanwhile, they're the ones that put us in this place right now. Deregulation doesn't do anything but take rules that make life livable and through them out the window because it inconveniences "job creators..." LMAO!!! TOO FUNNY!
about an hour ago •
David Cox
You like Ron Paul... He wants to get rid of the Dept. of Ed... So do kids get educated? You are the product of a public education. Your parents couldn't home school you. How would you have learned?
He wants to get rid of the EPA... Withou...t the EPA we wouldn't have trees or clean water. But we would have plenty of oil and natural gas... And dead people all around who wouldn't be able to buy it. Dude, wake up. This conversation has been over for a long time. Your stances do not support America. It supports YOUR IDEA of what YOUR AMERICA is. It's OUR AMERICA.See More
51 minutes ago •
Demosthenes:
Thank you for the Reducto Ad Absurdum. and you really need to get off of economic topics, your inability to give cogent arguments based on facts is tiring, and too many for me to give effort to refute. What I am is a CAPITALIST. that does...n't mean no regulation, and it doesn't mean completely free market. What I believe has roots to what is called Laissez Faire, but is not entirely Laissez Faire.
When I am NOT a fan of is the welfare state, or the state that oppresses ANYONES RIGHTS without reason. This is ABSOLUTELY NOT a reason for federal intervention. O, and FYI, myself, as well as several other's who happen to actually be Catholic scholars, believe the Catholic church's strict rules will change eventually to allow it in medically needed situations; but that is NOT the governments right to tell them when.
STOP. Get a more refined argument, then I will continue this debate, but I'm tired of the propaganda messages being used in argument as well as words and oppinions being lambasted and projected onto me when my opinion is clearly not that.
Raebekah, since you've come into this several times, I will point this onto you. What you just called me was heartless.
What I do litterally changes millions of lives for the better.See More
40 minutes ago •
Demosthenes: And the most frustrating thing about what I do. I can't talk about it.
39 minutes ago •
Demosthenes: You are right about one thing in this argument... I'm done debating with the ill informed.
10 minutes ago •
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